Streetcar to the riverfront

[dnweava]

He thinks literally everything in KC is either dead or blighted. I stopped engaging with him years ago.

I love KC, but if you think it's a very active city, you don't get out much. I'm sorry if the truth hurts. But KC feels like a very "empty" city for a large city most of the time. That's just how the city is. It has small pockets of activity, but for the most part, it's just not a very busy city and the same goes for the parks etc. I mean have you spent time in the parks in Austin or Minneapolis or Denver or even St Louis? And KC does have a high percentage of "blight".

I'm sorry this is so offensive. Doesn't mean KC is a terrible place by any stretch. But on the surface and to most people when the visit it for the first time, the city still lacks "people" and the urban core lacks any real urban bustle. Nearly every video of KC on youtube is full of comments of people asking "where are the people?" "it looks like a very quiet place". It's a photogenic city from the air etc, but from the street level, it's empty in most places (compared to central urban areas of other large cities).

If you don't see this, then you don't get out of KC much.

Stop taking shit so personal. Maybe KC could improve some things if people there would even acknowledge some things about it. It's like the area around the stadiums. It's like people don't even realize how bad that area looks now and if you say something like I do, then you are the bad person.

Yeah, no. Compared to any city in the Midwest of a similar size that I’ve been to, KC absolutely blows the others out of the water. The core has a significantly higher bustle factor as compared to even just 5 years ago, and if you’re going to compare KC to other spots, at least make them places with comparable metro populations and densities.

Sadly, I can't disagree with Grid on this. We are so spread out that much smaller cities actually have better downtown streetlife.

Springfield, MO and Lawrence are college towns who's bar district is downtown, but South Street (Spfd) and Mass St both have better streetlife than any street KC has downtown.

OKC and Wichita both have downtown adjacent bar districts vs Westport being 5 miles away.

Memphis has Beale St and an NBA team downtown. San Antonio has the riverwalk, Our up and coming similar metro population peers of Austin, Portland, and Nashville blow us away. What peers besides dying rust belt cities can we even say we are better than? Tulsa?, that's not something to brag about having a similar streetlife with....

We have little pockets of life at City Market(on Saturdays when the weather is above 60) , Crossroads (only on first Fridays) and westport and the plaza on a more regular basis but these areas are all disconnected and spread out. I think the streetcar extension will really help connect these areas and eventually create more synergy around the stations and between the areas (at least give tourists using the streetcar a better impression of the city). We have a TON of potential along the extended streetcar route and if baseball moves to the Crossroads it will massively help spur this into a streetlife corridor at least during the summers.

First Fridays for 2 hours per month is what major cities feel like on a Tuesday afternoon.

[Cratedigger]

I think people underestimate how quiet kc can be. I can often walk from the crossroads and to power and light without seeing anyone.

River market has more activity and power and light too.

KC punches above its wait in activities, but is quite poor in street level activation. It's still dominated by point to point car trips. Not as bad as it used to be but still there.

True

We have little pockets of life at City Market(on Saturdays when the weather is above 60) , Crossroads (only on first Fridays) and westport and the plaza on a more regular basis but these areas are all disconnected and spread out. I think the streetcar extension will really help connect these areas and eventually create more synergy around the stations and between the areas (at least give tourists using the streetcar a better impression of the city). We have a TON of potential along the extended streetcar route and if baseball moves to the Crossroads it will massively help spur this into a streetlife corridor at least during the summers.

First Fridays for 2 hours per month is what major cities feel like on a Tuesday afternoon.

Agreed

[GRID]

Dang, nice to see some people posting reality posts. Doesn't mean they hate KC...

[Jblanco]

But KC feels like a very "empty" city for a large city most of the time. That's just how the city is. It has small pockets of activity, but for the most part, it's just not a very busy city and the same goes for the parks etc.

Agree. Grid's assessments are pretty accurate.

First Fridays for 2 hours per month is what major cities feel like on a Tuesday afternoon.

Agreed

BULLSH77

Either neither of you have been to FF before or you have no ability to remember street activity correctly from cities you've visited.

I will agree that KC ped/street activity is low, but to state that other MW cities have the same PED activity as KC's FF is silly. The streets and sidewalks are packed on FF with thousands of pedestrians. Don't tell me that sidewalks are packed like FF in other MW cities on Tuesday afternoons. That's just absurd.

[GRID]

I think Cratedigger was specifically referring to large cities when he said that. I would agree that first friday street activity is way above any normal midwestern city outside of Chicago and even busier than larger cities in some cases. However First Friday is more of an event held for several hours a month. Hardly a normal representation of daily activity.

I will say that KC is pretty awesome on first fridays.

[dnweava]

But KC feels like a very "empty" city for a large city most of the time. That's just how the city is. It has small pockets of activity, but for the most part, it's just not a very busy city and the same goes for the parks etc.

Agree. Grid's assessments are pretty accurate.

First Fridays for 2 hours per month is what major cities feel like on a Tuesday afternoon.

Agreed

BULLSH77

Either neither of you have been to FF before or you have no ability to remember street activity correctly from cities you've visited.

I will agree that KC ped/street activity is low, but to state that other MW cities have the same PED activity as KC's FF is silly. The streets and sidewalks are packed on FF with thousands of pedestrians. Don't tell me that sidewalks are packed like FF in other MW cities on Tuesday afternoons. That's just absurd.

I specifically said major cities and didn't say midwest. We want to be a world class city (we are hosting the WORLD CUP), we need to compare ourselves to the world, not to rust belt cities. That's like bragging about being the smartest 8 year old in your kindergarten class. I've been to London, Berlin, NYC, Chicago, Sao Paulo, Monterrey MX, Recife BR, Florence, Geneva just to name the first few cities that popped into my head and every single one of those cities has as much streetlife on a weekeday afternoon that we have at First Fridays.

Now that I'm spending more time thinking about it, also add downtown Fort Collins as a SMALLER US city with FAR more streetlife than KC and that's a very car centric city.

[TheUrbanRoo]

His famously dramatized "I'm just being realistic!!" = "if you don't agree with me you're automatically wrong".

The guy undersells literally *everything* having to do with KC. I even remember at this time two years ago he was saying Mahomes/Chiefs were probably overhyped and not really as good as advertised because they lose one fluke playoff game to Cincy. And how'd that work out? Whether it's sports, urbanism, or the weather that day he will *shit everywhere*. I take nothing he says seriously because it's always just filled with unrealistic cynicism and everything posted is based off dumbass facebook post comments he reads. He knows more than you because he reads the social media comments, doesn't matter that he hasn't lived here in three decades! Nobody else travels or gets around but him!

Go ahead, get mad, I don't care anymore. and I'm sure I speak for plenty of people on here when I say we roll our eyes at just about every post he does.

[GRID]

Lol, if you can find that post, I'll give you $100. I have ALWAYS said that KC feels very empty and it still does. It's better but it's still a very quiet city relative to most other cities. Downtown streets are empty etc. When I bring my family back to KC, it's the first thing they notice too after being away. They are not used to a city with so few people and so little traffic (on urban surface streets).

And when you are still building shit like Cerner in SKC and building up Village West and 159th and Metcalf more than the city in 2024 when most other metros have moved on to TOD, even in the suburbs, then yeah, I'm going to say it like it is.

KC is a nice city with a lot of shit to do and has a ton of cultural attractions etc. But it also has a shit ton of empty and very underused urban land and everything is so strung out everywhere that it's hard to have any real urban bustle, working transit etc. That's why I might not get excited about west bottoms development etc, because I want to see an area like Crossraods build out and at the rate of development there, it will take decades to build out a neighborhood if you are building small stuff in six different areas. I want KC to have an area full of pedestrians all the time, not just 3 hours on some first Fridays. I'm critical of the river front because it should be more dense. That new downtown Lenexa thing feels more walkable the the River front.

The main street extension should really help KC connect some of the dots, but personally, I'm a bit disappointed in what has been started on Main Street. I really thought more would be UC than that one project at Westport Rd by now.

I mean the developers that were building in the city have moved on to stuff in the suburbs like Milhaus. Very little is in the pipeline for urban KCMO. Instead of getting mad at me, ask the question why?

I'm sorry if what I say pisses you off...I don't really care either.

I could just give up and just accept the status quo. Might even jump on the save Kauffman Stadium bandwagon for you.

And again, go find that post about Mahomes. I have been a chiefs fan for a long time, I'm enjoying this run.

[bspecht]

Back on topic please.

[GRID]

I just went to youtube and looked about about two dozen videos of downtown KC and most of the top comments are, it's a nice and quiet looking city, but... "where are the people?", "why is it so dead?", "does anybody live there?" "it looks like a ghost town". These are very common comments on nearly every video of people walking and driving around downtown KC. I have even commented asking people to try and make videos when they know the city will be busy with multiple events going on or something to show the city in a better light to people that are used to cities with people in them. KC is not a very busy city. Why that is such an insult I have no idea.

Just defending myself here because I get so much hate for even mentioning that KC lacks people and even vehicle traffic in the urban parts of the city. It's a simple trait of the city, a side effect of the geography and layout, whatever. But for a large city, most streets and sidewalks are pretty empty most of the time.

And that comes back to the Riverfront and streetcar extension down there. I just want to see it built out as dense as possible and I get it that more people use Berkley Park now, but more needs to be done to make it less isolated. The pedestrian bridge parallel to Grand will be a massive improvement to doing that. I'm not sure I get the Kaw river bridge, it's another isolated thing people are going to drive to that won't interact with anything downtown. Why couldn't something like that be done with the old Broadway Bridge instead? But as usual, you juts have to accept it because criticizing anything in KC is just bad. KC desperately needs connectivity. Where people will walk from one part of the city to the other rather than drive.

Anyway, I will continue to stay what I think needs to be said about KC development in this forum. I mean I'm never going to agree with the new Broadway Bridge design and stuff like that. It think it's just terrible urban planning to build another freeway and more flyover ramps. I comment plenty of the good things that happen in the city, I'm sorry if you don't see that. KCI terminal has been great for example.

My comment here was about the streetcar extension and questioning if spending over 60 million on a half mile of streetcar is worth the investment, especially if the area is built out as a collection of stand alone car centric apartment complexes vs into a truly dense urban neighborhood. It probably is worth the investment. Any transit investment it worth the investment IMO, I just hope the other half of the riverfront is built out like people are saying it will and they don't just end up with more of the same. I was hoping to see the riverfront development more similar to the platte valley in Denver. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7573224 ... ?entry=ttu

[Belvidere]

I agree we need more people and I don't know how to get there without more emphasis on employers, daycare, etc. When I speak to young couples, they say they don't mind KCPS. Today, it's the crime and lack of convenience, having to scramble to get what they need.

My biggest beef with the transit strategy is that it seems to be driven by destinations and not by practicality. We are investing in visitors and outsiders, and not by people who can't afford to have cars or don't want them. We are going to have to advocate to get a bus stop near the Head Start program or senior services.

I don't know quite how to grapple with the ongoing speculation and vacant properties. My street has more vacant buildings and fewer people than it has in 20 years.

[dukuboy1]

Honestly outside of mega cities like Chicago, NYC, etc. that have metro populations over 4 million you can go to downtown or areas of downtown where it may appear to be "dead". You point is still valid and KC is mostly quiet around downtown unless there is an event of some kind. You can usually find a few blocks with steady activity but go an extra block and it dead. Nothing wrong with it I feel, just an observation and true.

But I've spent a lot of time both for business & leisure, in all seasons, in major cities where I've wandered into an area and wondered where the people were. Even in NYC, the greatest city in the country for general urban street life you can go a few blocks of minimal people out on the streets, especially in areas that are residential, but a few blocks away is more of the businesses and such.

I'm all for creating better access from the freeways to downtown but once you get into the area it becomes a big city grid, not jenky off ramps that lead you right to the TMobile Center ( a visual example not what is there in reality but you get the point). I'd love a lot more streetscaping to make the sidewalks and areas more inviting and pleasant to walk along.
The biggest issue to the "street life" not being what it could is there are still a lot vacant buildings, storefronts and just empty barren lots. Walk along Walnut or Grand from 7th street South to P&L and you can see what I mean. We have made a lot of progress but still have a long way to go. I suspect those blank areas on the North end of downtown will start to see more development here over the next 10yrs, especially as people want to be in the RiverMarket area but can find a place in the the heart of the district. The Infill South from P&L to Crown Center is happening slowly and steadily and will continue. The cap over 670 is going to be a real big catalyst for more development and really creating a cohesive feel for downtown. The next 10 years I'd love to feel a real cohesive connections from the RiverMarket to Crown Center. That would be quite an accomplishment for downtown development. Ideally the North Highway loop could be removed but that is a more like a 25yr pipe dream but at least conversations are there. Hell a tunnel of 1-70 through that area would be awesome but obviously would never happen because of costs but it would be the win/win solution to remove the loop so that you can build out the grid but still keep that access to i70 and I35 south from the East.

[dukuboy1]

I agree we need more people and I don't know how to get there without more emphasis on employers, daycare, etc. When I speak to young couples, they say they don't mind KCPS. Today, it's the crime and lack of convenience, having to scramble to get what they need.

My biggest beef with the transit strategy is that it seems to be driven by destinations and not by practicality. We are investing in visitors and outsiders, and not by people who can't afford to have cars or don't want them. We are going to have to advocate to get a bus stop near the Head Start program or senior services.

I don't know quite how to grapple with the ongoing speculation and vacant properties. My street has more vacant buildings and fewer people than it has in 20 years.

I agree that KC really needs to figure out a way to incentivize business to want to locate downtown. Some run because they get good tax breaks and KC has the earnings tax. But I think that the earning tax would not be a deal breaker if you can offer others things for businesses. But I 100% agree that along with the residents, we need more companies and people working downtown. With that will bring opportunities for smaller businesses to pop up and serve that employment population as well as the increased residents in the area.

It's like we have a bizzaro downtown. It's gets busier after 5pm when the companies that are downtown close up business for the day & those workers leave and the residents who live downtown come back home after working outside of downtown

[Jblanco]

I just went to youtube and looked about about two dozen videos of downtown KC and most of the top comments are, it's a nice and quiet looking city, but... "where are the people?", "why is it so dead?", "does anybody live there?" "it looks like a ghost town".

I was hoping to see the riverfront development more similar to the platte valley in Denver. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7573224 ... ?entry=ttu

Wow, that is exactly the minimum density the Riverfront should have attracted. It just shows you how F'd up KC is. We haven't had competent leadership since Barnes, Sly was OK but even he didn't have a real vision. After decades the city departments and management are entrenched with incompetent diversity and nepotism hires that couldn't run a cash register at Starbucks. Developers hate KCMO. The entire metro knows it. KCMO mayor and council are clueless to their worthlessness.

There isn't one single reason that the streetcar should be extended down there. Bite the bullet, wait and run it down Independence Avenue after they finish their endless Paseo nightmare project. Independence ave is the only mixed use street with the density and demographics to make it work. It's success would change everything about the way people view dedicated transit in KC.

[TheUrbanRoo]

Honestly outside of mega cities like Chicago, NYC, etc. that have metro populations over 4 million you can go to downtown or areas of downtown where it may appear to be "dead". You point is still valid and KC is mostly quiet around downtown unless there is an event of some kind. You can usually find a few blocks with steady activity but go an extra block and it dead. Nothing wrong with it I feel, just an observation and true.

This is exactly what it is. There are like 4-5 US cities that are actually active consistently. The shit complained about with KC is true in basically every city. That's just America. 98% of the cities are suburban focused and don't really have active cores outside of specific times/events. It's literally like this everywhere, and like many have mentioned KC is actually one of the better ones on this end. And quickly rising above it faster than most.

[daGOAT]

DTKC is much busier at nite but pre pandemic at lunch was always really busy too. I think 20th and Main and most of the River Market are busy everything I visit. However I'm always disappointed by the lack of ped traffic on Broadway in Quality Hill.

[taxi]

Broadway is a ped buster.

[GRID]

I would agree that most American downtowns are dead, but it's way more than just 4-5 that are generally pretty lively (by USA standards).

Most midwest cities are dead, especially places like Omaha (outside old market), Tulsa, OKC, St Louis (but they do have lively parks), Memphis, outside Beale St and the riverfront, I can go on and on.

There are some pretty vibrant mid sized cities between the coasts. Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Austin, Denver, Minneapolis (in summer), New Orleans, Richmond, Nashville (sort of busy, but mostly just Broadway) etc.

But places like San Diego, Boston, Seattle, Portland, SF, Chicago, NYC, Philly, DC, Baltimore, Charlotte seem to be pretty busy all the time.

Then you have the really big cites that are truly disappointing like Dallas, Phoenix, Houston and Atlanta. They are much busier than downtown KC, have transit etc, but for their sizes they are not good at all.

So KC is far from the worst, and the lack of people does not mean it has a bad downtown. For like the 1000th time, I think it has more to do with the geography and layout of the city than anything. West and north of downtown is bluffs and rivers. There are highways EVERYWHERE and there really are no through streets downtown. There is no reason to be driving in downtown when simply getting from one place to another. The highways take nearly all the cars off the streets, so it makes it feel like there is nobody there, but if you can hear the rumble of the thousands of cars passing through 670, 70, 35 etc.

It's also exaggerated for me. I spend nearly all my time in DC, Philly, NYC etc and in foreign cities. If I do to go places like Indy, it's typically for short stints. When we go to KC, we spend several days at a time Downtown which includes weekdays etc. I can't say I have spent several days in downtown Indy, but when I go there, it has a lot more people walking around and the downtown streets are much busier than KC's.

So I stand by my thoughts that KC has one of the more quieter downtowns. But that doesn't really mean it's a "dead" downtown. The only people that are there are those that have destinations there and they all drive and park within a half block of their destination if they are going downtown. That's the difference.

[Critical_Mass]

I heard that they are extending the streetcar to the riverfront! Sorry if wrong thread.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I would agree that most American downtowns are dead, but it's way more than just 4-5 that are generally pretty lively (by USA standards).

Most midwest cities are dead, especially places like Omaha (outside old market), Tulsa, OKC, St Louis (but they do have lively parks), Memphis, outside Beale St and the riverfront, I can go on and on.

There are some pretty vibrant mid sized cities between the coasts. Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Austin, Denver, Minneapolis (in summer), New Orleans, Richmond, Nashville (sort of busy, but mostly just Broadway) etc.

But places like San Diego, Boston, Seattle, Portland, SF, Chicago, NYC, Philly, DC, Baltimore, Charlotte seem to be pretty busy all the time.

Then you have the really big cites that are truly disappointing like Dallas, Phoenix, Houston and Atlanta. They are much busier than downtown KC, have transit etc, but for their sizes they are not good at all.

So KC is far from the worst, and the lack of people does not mean it has a bad downtown. For like the 1000th time, I think it has more to do with the geography and layout of the city than anything. West and north of downtown is bluffs and rivers. There are highways EVERYWHERE and there really are no through streets downtown. There is no reason to be driving in downtown when simply getting from one place to another. The highways take nearly all the cars off the streets, so it makes it feel like there is nobody there, but if you can hear the rumble of the thousands of cars passing through 670, 70, 35 etc.

It's also exaggerated for me. I spend nearly all my time in DC, Philly, NYC etc and in foreign cities. If I do to go places like Indy, it's typically for short stints. When we go to KC, we spend several days at a time Downtown which includes weekdays etc. I can't say I have spent several days in downtown Indy, but when I go there, it has a lot more people walking around and the downtown streets are much busier than KC's.

So I stand by my thoughts that KC has one of the more quieter downtowns. But that doesn't really mean it's a "dead" downtown. The only people that are there are those that have destinations there and they all drive and park within a half block of their destination if they are going downtown. That's the difference.

And yet everyone outside KC throws us in that "good" category except you!