KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[mean]

But that's just the sort of thing that they're unlikely to be able to prevent anyway. Sure, if the Streetcar Authority sends you a cease and desist, you might decide it's not worth getting sued over. But if there's any unauthorized usage that courts are quick to call fair use, it's using a government agency's copyrights to criticize it in the political arena.

This is true. I don't know whether that's sufficient to make a government agency go, "Let's just give our stuff to the opposition," especially when it is as pervasive and pernicious as the anti-streetcar people. I can sympathize somewhat with what I suspect the intent is, even if it is probably ultimately misguided.

[flyingember]

But that's just the sort of thing that they're unlikely to be able to prevent anyway. Sure, if the Streetcar Authority sends you a cease and desist, you might decide it's not worth getting sued over. But if there's any unauthorized usage that courts are quick to call fair use, it's using a government agency's copyrights to criticize it in the political arena.

This is true. I don't know whether that's sufficient to make a government agency go, "Let's just give our stuff to the opposition," especially when it is as pervasive and pernicious as the anti-streetcar people. I can sympathize somewhat with what I suspect the intent is, even if it is probably ultimately misguided.

100% understand your issues except a logo used by a political opposition is exactly what freedom of speech covers. Remember, people don't care that the authority is a separate corporation.

They see the system as an extension of Kansas City.

[mean]

Right, I get you. I just can sympathize with what I perceive the intent to be, which is to say, a corporation trying to protect its IP from being used in ways it doesn't want it to be used. They may be wrong, misguided, and ultimately ineffective--worse, it would totally Streisand effect if they DID try to C&D, say, TKC or whatever. So I guess at the end of the day it's stupid to even try to control it. But I can still sympathize with them given the nature of the opposition.

[flyingember]

Right, I get you. I just can sympathize with what I perceive the intent to be, which is to say, a corporation trying to protect its IP from being used in ways it doesn't want it to be used. They may be wrong, misguided, and ultimately ineffective--worse, it would totally Streisand effect if they DID try to C&D, say, TKC or whatever. So I guess at the end of the day it's stupid to even try to control it. But I can still sympathize with them given the nature of the opposition.

I'm not even worried about the opposition. One well known thing about trademark and such coverage is you have to actively protect your rights to keep them. from what I understand is if you don't do this for all cases, even when you are ok with the mark being used by that person, you lose the right to control it.

it's the idea of suing a fan of the system making a shirt that no one finds to be a problem that I would be worried about. the uproar from that would be worse outcome for the city.

there's a simple solution luckily. they can keep the usage license but write into their paperwork that registered political action committees or politicians may use it for official political communications and for anyone else clarify that the license may be obtained after producing products (though it doesn't specify it must be done before making the item with the current requirements I wouldn't accept the argument that's actually the case). this gives them the the chance to be flexibile with legitimate uses, the person that doesn't know can get into compliance, and for anyone else they can go after.

[flyingember]

2.25 blocks of track to go in the crossroads (1850 to 2075).

Delaware looks really good. I never cease to be amazed how bad people will park with evidence of how to do it staring them in the face. On the back in parking I predict there's going to be videos of a car backing away from a train after other cars box them in and they try to go the wrong way with it coming. And it will be funny.

[DaveKCMO]

proposed car numbers: 801, 802, 803, 804

this reflects where the last new order of PCC vehicles stopped in the 1940s (725-799).

most modern streetcar systems start from the beginning, so this is a nice touch that i'm proud to have had a hand in. turns out our numbering system was really convoluted!

[rxlexi]

this reflects where the last new order of PCC vehicles stopped in the 1940s (725-799).

most modern streetcar systems start from the beginning, so this is a nice touch that i'm proud to have had a hand in. turns out our numbering system was really convoluted!

Sometimes, it's the little things

[warwickland]

proposed car numbers: 801, 802, 803, 804

this reflects where the last new order of PCC vehicles stopped in the 1940s (725-799).

most modern streetcar systems start from the beginning, so this is a nice touch that i'm proud to have had a hand in. turns out our numbering system was really convoluted!

that's awesome!

[KCPowercat]

proposed car numbers: 801, 802, 803, 804

this reflects where the last new order of PCC vehicles stopped in the 1940s (725-799).

most modern streetcar systems start from the beginning, so this is a nice touch that i'm proud to have had a hand in. turns out our numbering system was really convoluted!

Awesome...nice work. Can't wait to brag on that story.

[DaveKCMO]

anyone want to join me for a walking tour this sunday? https://www.facebook.com/events/665381296901503/

[mean]

Will the walking tour be completed faster than the actual streetcar will make the route? (I kid, I kid)

[grovester]

anyone want to join me for a walking tour this sunday? https://www.facebook.com/events/665381296901503/

Sorry, I'm Irish, but next time!

[flyingember]

Will the walking tour be completed faster than the actual streetcar will make the route? (I kid, I kid)

in a year, streetcar walking tours can be replaced with learn about downtown via streetcar tours.

[DaveKCMO]

big biz journal cover story about downtown development, much of it driven by streetcar:

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/p ... pment.html

[Shirley] Helzberg said the foundation set by previous investments — the Kauffman Center for the Performing Arts, Sprint Center arena and the Kansas City Power & Light District — allowed the streetcar project to build up excitement and development momentum. She said interest in her downtown properties, and in developing the areas near the streetcar line, are as high as she’s ever seen in 15 years as a downtown developer.

[flyingember]

1/2 block of track slab in the crossroads left

[GRID]

Anybody been following the streetcar fiasco in DC? Personally, I thought it was a terrible idea to try to put streetcars in DC. It's just too crowded of a city for streetcars to function properly. However, some of the problems they are having might also affect KC since KC will be one of the first towns to build modern streetcars in a more extreme weather city. DC has had a lot of problems with failing track, switches not functioning etc. The bottom line is that the streetcars are painfully slow and are only slowing down the very busy bus lines in the corridor. Articulated buses are getting caught behind slow streetcars and the streetcars are hitting parked cars and what not causing severe congestion and delays.

Anyway, DC keeps threatening to never open the first 2 mile line that's been testing now for close to a year. They have basically scrapped the expansion plans and other planned streetcar lines in neighboring suburbs such as Alexandria are being shelved.

While KC is trying to use streetcars as a transit spine rather than what they are generally used for (low ridership, slow and short trips connecting neighborhoods) KC has zero traffic on surface streets. Every single photo you ever see of downtown KC shows almost totally empty streets. For that reason, I think streetcars will work in KC for longer and faster trips where they won’t work in most large cities. Streetcars generally compliment light and heavy rail (Portland, Seattle, Philly, Dallas, St Louis, Atlanta etc). KC and Cincy will be the first towns that try to build regional transit around the streetcar vs just building small streetcar lines that only compliment a larger more robust system.

The only reason being is that KC and Cincy have failed to figure out how to build a more expensive light rail system to serve as a backbone. Even Cincy is much more congested than KC, but they are building a loop not a line. KC is really the first town trying to use streetcar technology in place of light rail and it’s probably the only city where it makes sense to do it.

I’m sort of rambling. I guess my only real point here is that I hope KC’s streetcar is able to open with very little issues and they can learn from the mistakes that DC has made. Because KC’s streetcar basically is KC’s future transit spine and not just a little tourist/neighborhood line, I think it’s EXTREMELY important to have zero issues because if it does have issues, the public and the city could quickly loose interest in expanding to the plaza and beyond. The KC streetcar will be a failure if it doesn't reach the plaza/umkc area (since building a LRT spine seems to be off the table now). I really hope the city can quickly figure out a way to extend the streetcar into midtown, westport and the plaza very quickly.

[flyingember]

LRT is not off the table. It comes down to how we design the line. I would agree to UMKC is the critical expansion segment for the system. it's the lynchpin for everything else I can think of.

Houston runs what anyone would call true light rail. their system looks very close to what we could build. Their 6 downtown loop stops and our starter line has almost the exact same stop spacing at an average of ~0.22 miles apart.

If we built six stops south of Union Station to UMKC roughly evenly spaced they would be an average of 0.575 miles apart. Houston outside of their loop is 0.54 to the south and 0.64 to the north. If we take out the farthest north station it's 0.55 spacing to the north.

without the last stop the red line north extension is 3.8 miles
an extension to 51st would be 3.5 miles

if we build a dedicated lane to UMKC you can see how we're getting into semantics on what's light rail and what's a streetcar. compared to Houston it's the line layout and the train size. We could come back and extend the platforms and put in longer trains. Charlotte did this to run double trains.

[DaveKCMO]

Anybody been following the streetcar fiasco in DC? Personally, I thought it was a terrible idea to try to put streetcars in DC. It's just too crowded of a city for streetcars to function properly. However, some of the problems they are having might also affect KC since KC will be one of the first towns to build modern streetcars in a more extreme weather city. DC has had a lot of problems with failing track, switches not functioning etc. The bottom line is that the streetcars are painfully slow and are only slowing down the very busy bus lines in the corridor. Articulated buses are getting caught behind slow streetcars and the streetcars are hitting parked cars and what not causing severe congestion and delays.

Anyway, DC keeps threatening to never open the first 2 mile line that's been testing now for close to a year. They have basically scrapped the expansion plans and other planned streetcar lines in neighboring suburbs such as Alexandria are being shelved.

While KC is trying to use streetcars as a transit spine rather than what they are generally used for (low ridership, slow and short trips connecting neighborhoods) KC has zero traffic on surface streets. Every single photo you ever see of downtown KC shows almost totally empty streets. For that reason, I think streetcars will work in KC for longer and faster trips where they won’t work in most large cities. Streetcars generally compliment light and heavy rail (Portland, Seattle, Philly, Dallas, St Louis, Atlanta etc). KC and Cincy will be the first towns that try to build regional transit around the streetcar vs just building small streetcar lines that only compliment a larger more robust system.

The only reason being is that KC and Cincy have failed to figure out how to build a more expensive light rail system to serve as a backbone. Even Cincy is much more congested than KC, but they are building a loop not a line. KC is really the first town trying to use streetcar technology in place of light rail and it’s probably the only city where it makes sense to do it.

I’m sort of rambling. I guess my only real point here is that I hope KC’s streetcar is able to open with very little issues and they can learn from the mistakes that DC has made. Because KC’s streetcar basically is KC’s future transit spine and not just a little tourist/neighborhood line, I think it’s EXTREMELY important to have zero issues because if it does have issues, the public and the city could quickly loose interest in expanding to the plaza and beyond. The KC streetcar will be a failure if it doesn't reach the plaza/umkc area (since building a LRT spine seems to be off the table now). I really hope the city can quickly figure out a way to extend the streetcar into midtown, westport and the plaza very quickly.

Having witnessed the DC streetcar in test mode (operating full schedule without passengers) a month ago, I can tell you I witnessed no such conflicts with the buses. Keep in mind that is why you test, to work out the kinks before going live. It's like basing the success of software on an alpha test experience (or more accurately, the Twitter reaction to an alpha test).

They just completed a peer review that found no fatal flaws. The line will open, and it will expand. The question is will it expand as originally hoped (a citywide network to fill gaps in the existing WMATA network).

The ultimate flaw in how the H Street line was implemented is that they installed track and purchased vehicles before designing the system. NO ONE DOES THAT, INCLUDING KC. It s also a good argument for a weak mayor form of government - let the pros call the shots and get the actual work done right before making promises you can't keep.

Finally, all existing bus service on Main is moving, except for the small stretch of MAX service, and with the current level of effort (which is zero) there is no congestion on Main outside of multi-event nights.

A better system to watch is Tucson, which isn't as dense or trafficky and their line will essentially operate as a spine.

[loftguy]

And keep in mind that light rail is not always a 'better' transit solution.

The original stretch of Denver light rail, installed 17 years ago, is being studied for replacement with streetcar.

Yep. The planners say it will happen. Light rail was overkill and it is unwieldy in that application

[flyingember]

And keep in mind that light rail is not always a 'better' transit solution.

The original stretch of Denver light rail, installed 17 years ago, is being studied for replacement with streetcar.

Yep. The planners say it will happen. Light rail was overkill and it is unwieldy in that application

yep, with no money to do it