KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[flyingember]

I found my favorite article on light rail vs streetcar

http://denverurbanism.com/2015/01/how-t ... -rail.html

[chingon]

Even Cincy is much more congested than KC, but they are building a loop not a line. KC is really the first town trying to use streetcar technology in place of light rail and it’s probably the only city where it makes sense to do it.

Cincy's "loop" is really just a spine on 2 adjacent (narrow) streets. If memory serves, I think its mostly on one-way streets even. Certainly in the OTR portion, though I don't really remember what its like in their CBD, where the tracks are on Main and the next street west of there I think.

[JBmidtown]

Having witnessed the DC streetcar in test mode (operating full schedule without passengers) a month ago, I can tell you I witnessed no such conflicts with the buses. Keep in mind that is why you test, to work out the kinks before going live. It's like basing the success of software on an alpha test experience (or more accurately, the Twitter reaction to an alpha test).

They just completed a peer review that found no fatal flaws. The line will open, and it will expand. The question is will it expand as originally hoped (a citywide network to fill gaps in the existing WMATA network).

The ultimate flaw in how the H Street line was implemented is that they installed track and purchased vehicles before designing the system. NO ONE DOES THAT, INCLUDING KC. It s also a good argument for a weak mayor form of government - let the pros call the shots and get the actual work done right before making promises you can't keep.

Finally, all existing bus service on Main is moving, except for the small stretch of MAX service, and with the current level of effort (which is zero) there is no congestion on Main outside of multi-event nights.

A better system to watch is Tucson, which isn't as dense or trafficky and their line will essentially operate as a spine.

What exactly will happen to all the Main st MAX resources when the UMKC extension is eventually built? Will KCATA just retire all those buses or make a new parallel line with what they're able to recycle? Plus the MAX will still need to reach Waldo. It would be such a waste to do away with all those resources.

Also I agree with GRID on making the streetcar as light rail as possible once it extends out of the dense downtown areas. It would be...nice.

It still seems Tucson may not be the best case study for KC. Does it even rain there?? Still, streetcar for the win

And bus shelters!!! Viva LA bus shelters!!!

[GRID]

Don't get me wrong, I think streetcars are perfect for KC and yes, the line can be upgraded to something more capable of being a major transit spine, while maintaining the urban scale qualities of streetcars.

But the DC streetcars are a big mess. I don't think they will work very well in crowded urban corridors of DC. I think they would be fine along the mall to connect tourist attractions where they could run on wide relatively uncongested streets, but sticking them in very heavy traffic corridors with narrow streets in very dense areas is a bad idea.

I just want to see the KC line quickly expanded. It needs to be expanded the plaza and umkc very quickly. I think once they do that, it won't be long before they start talking about upgrading that line and building more traditional streetcar lines to compliment the main line.

[Eon Blue]

If the 2014 elections had passed, the plan was to re-purpose the Main Street Max equipment for Prospect Max and serve the Plaza to Waldo portion of the route with a standard ATA route. Alas, that did not pan out. I don't know enough about bus lifespans to say whether that's still a viable plan for the next attempt.

[flyingember]

What exactly will happen to all the Main st MAX resources when the UMKC extension is eventually built? Will KCATA just retire all those buses or make a new parallel line with what they're able to recycle? Plus the MAX will still need to reach Waldo. It would be such a waste to do away with all those resources.

The KCATA keeps busses for 13-16 years. So it depends on what year operations could begin if the line has new or old busses on it. As I recall part of the Prospect MAX cost to build that line involved replacing the busses for this reason because odds were slim they could be moved from Main St

[pash]

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[GRID]

Tell me you haven't become the DC version of a Johnson Countian, GRID. ...

Haha, not at all, quite the contrary.

Just like in KC, I feel like I know more about DC than just about everybody I have come in contact with (that live outside the district, even long time area residents). Now, DC is a super fast changing city. I can not even begin to keep up with development in the city like you can in KC, so I won't say I know the city as well as city dwellers for sure. But I'm in various parts of the city all the time (almost daily). I take a commuter bus into DC to catch the Red Line which will often use H Street. That's where I have seen problems with the streetcars. But I also think it's pretty well documented that it does have problems. Many are trying to figure out if there is a way to get it into a dedicated right of way.

I'm not against streetcars in DC. I just think the way they are doing it has not been a good design.

Tell me this. If you lived in the area, why would you rather take a slower streetcar that probably won't get you as far as you need to go when you can catch one of the X line buses that seem to navigate through everything quite well?

These buses carry a lot of people and move them pretty quickly:



DC does not need help gentrifying if that's the reason. The city is like watching a live version of SimCity, it's non stop redevelopment everywhere.

I'm a huge supporter of transit and bike infrastructure here. DC is building one hell of a bike lane system and I'm always trying to find ways to support the proposed Red and Purple light rail lines. And there are many areas of DC itself that could use some nice surface transportation like streetcars because metro doesn't go everywhere. I just don't think this this was a good place to install streetcars. But maybe it will work. All I know is that I hope KC's line has a lot better press coverage than what DC's is getting or it could be in trouble as well as far as expansion.

[pash]

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[flyingember]

it's also about system capacity and still having space for cars

The 60 foot NABI BRT bus holds 63 people.
The 75 foot CAF LRV vehicle like KC is getting will hold 267 people.

http://www.caf.es/en/productos-servicio ... ranvia.php
http://www.nabusind.com/products/brt-42

the largest busses take up so much more space. you need four busses to carry the same number of people as the KC streetcar, and it's by no means the largest.

Houston for example runs double trains during peak hours and can hold over 500 people on one train the same length as three of those busses.

[JBmidtown]

Yes, the high rider volume of the KC streetcar is its greatest asset. Try riding the MAX during conventions or big regional sporting/cultural events. It's a clusterfart of fun being little spooned by some cornfed, heavy breather from Des Moines.
Which is why I'll never understand why the locals, who ride the bus and hate being stuffed like sardines, still voted down the expansion plan. There's some ignorance in KC culture that dies hard.

Anyway, when time for expansion comes, we still have huge advantages over DC, with our wide streets and lower density, to make our relatively cheap streetcar work as good as a light rail system. Why can't the streetcar help locals move small and medium distances and fast? I know that the final, big picture plan is a walk/bike>bus>streetcar>commuter bus/rail integrated regional system...but I'll never understand why we're not just putting some paint to pavement and installing some signals/traffic signs to denote some semi dedicated lanes for the starter line. How much more would that have cost?

[DaveKCMO]

responding to a couple of items above:

- life of a federally-funded bus asset is only 7 years, but yes KCATA did say the would run main street MAX more like an express (which was the original plan anyway, until midtown insisted on more stops) if streetcar was extended to UMKC.
- the CAF URBOS 3 we're getting holds about 150 people standing. if the europeans count more it's because americans won't stomach standing so close to each other (or you've looked at the wrong configuration).
- was just in DC twice over the last few months and the frustration with WMATA is beyond belief, even amongst advocates. ridership is down and system -- bus and rail -- seems to be limping along. their problems are so much bigger than streetcar at this point.

[flyingember]

I looked at the actual Kansas City order info for that number. They have the selector to show train configurations by city.
Granted, that could be wrong but I would give odds that's the actual maximum capacity based on space and max carrying load not normal realistic load.

There's documents showing the diesel to CNG fleet conversion plan is over 12-14 years. A 7-year lifespan would mean they run busses way longer than they should.
http://ngvtoday.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... 2-2013.pdf
Page 4, right sidebar

[DaveKCMO]

track construction in the crossroads is COMPLETE: http://www.kcstreetcar.org/crossroads-track-complete/

party to celebrate the first completed shelter will happen late april or early may. a lot of the concrete for the platform is done, so you can get a sense of the scale (and how the bumpout will work). on one end you'll have a marker with real-time arrival sign and the other end will be the cisco smart city kiosk.

[bobbyhawks]

track construction in the crossroads is COMPLETE: http://www.kcstreetcar.org/crossroads-track-complete/

party to celebrate the first completed shelter will happen late april or early may. a lot of the concrete for the platform is done, so you can get a sense of the scale (and how the bumpout will work). on one end you'll have a marker with real-time arrival sign and the other end will be the cisco smart city kiosk.

Are they planning to even out the surrounding non-track road surface anytime soon? I almost took the bumper off my car heading West on 20th @ Main yesterday. I've little experience with driving over streetcar rails, so I'm not sure if this is normal. I wasn't traveling very fast, either, but it was speed-bump bad.

[DaveKCMO]

yes. the entire alignment will be milled and resurface (except the new track slab, of course). sidewalks will also be repaired.

[KCPowercat]

walked about 40% of the track alignment tonight....exciting to see it all coming together.

[flyingember]

walked about 40% of the track alignment tonight....exciting to see it all coming together.

the big deal point will be when people see new fire hydrants, new pavement, clean curbs stops. they won't need to have any knowledge of the system before than to understand what that means

[DaveKCMO]

the new main street through the crossroads, effective immediately. #roaddiet

[pash]

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